Talk:Protoss Empire
Logo why remove the logo of the article's subject? Asdf1239 20:54, September 18, 2010 (UTC) :Show that the logo that appeared for SCII applies to the polity that ended at the end of SCI. - Meco (talk, ) 21:23, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Worlds Taking the comment from the manual about the Protoss conquering hundreds of worlds, and looking at Fenix's comment about marching across hundreds of worlds in SC1 with Artanis in the past, do the Protoss still actually have those hundreds of worlds during SC1 and SC2? --Shadow Archon (talk) 22:02, June 9, 2015 (UTC) :It could be hyperbole from Fenix (along with statements such as Zeratul saying he served the Matriarch for millennia, longer than either of them had been alive). The protoss gave up a lot of worlds after the kalathi incident, and we don't really know when that happened. As it is, the protoss don't seem to have many worlds left. Still, In Utter Darkness, there were more protoss than expected, and keeping track of the Tal'darim worlds might be beyond the ken of the Daelaam. It doesn't help that a "conquered world" could mean any number of things, such as a previously xel'naga-visited world visited for a few days and having a flag (or pylon) planted on it. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 22:21, June 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Going by the comics, the Zerg have, according to the Terrans, infested over a hundred worlds in the Koprulu Sector alone( not counting the hundreds of worlds conquered during the transit between Zerus and the K-Sector) in the span of a few years. According to Brian, this is specifically the Zerg at a time where they were not going out of their way to conquer a whole swath of planets and is them being conservative by holding the majority of the Swarm on Char due to their weakness of holding onto planets. ::The Terran Dominion also has control of around ~50 named planets and moons by themselves in the setting, and probably more if Blizzard keeps inventing new planets as they have done recently. ::So, given that expansion of the lore into being a bigger setting by StarCraft 2 and the SC2-focused EU, I'm not actually sure if Fenix's comment is hyperbole. Unlike Zeratul's millennia claim, the manual actually supports his claim. ::As for the whole "conquer" thing, it could mean they planted a flag and left. It also could mean they took the planet by military force. Fenix's quote actually supports the latter if it's not hyperbole. ::There is the quote in LotV that says at the Protoss Empire's height, they had control over the entire K-Sector, so that's where the majority of the worlds they abandoned likely come from after the Kalathi business. ::Going by a few other places in the lore, "Hundreds" doesn't cover the majority of territory in the K-Sector, and could be the Empire in a diminished capacity. --Shadow Archon (talk) 03:09, June 10, 2015 (UTC) :::That they "marched over hundreds of worlds" doesn't mean anything by itself, or give us much indication as to how many worlds there were in the Empire during SC1. I say this because a) protoss are around for centuries, so stuff can change over that time, and b) marching over a world can just as easily mean defending a protoss world, invading an enemy world but not necessarily conquering it, or simply exploring it. We can safely assume that the PE worlds are mostly gone to the zerg by BW if Shakuras was the only place of refuge (at the least, we can infer other worlds were invaded - Braken is a known example) and that seems to be the case now. The Protoss Protectorate worlds are listed on its own page, but even in that case, the only worlds that seem to have viable populations are Shakuras and Ash'Arak. We also know that the protoss population was in decline by SC1, so that can also explain worlds being abandoned by that time. :::The comics line doesn't say much either, only that the zerg have infested over a hundred worlds. Easily hyperbole, but for instance, Mar Sara would still count as a zerg-infested world in theory, even after the Dominion moved in. That, and it could easily be reference to worlds outside Hickson's actual knowledge. :::Got a source for that LotV quote? That can go in if it's valid.--Hawki (talk) 04:48, June 10, 2015 (UTC) :::Well, that only works if you know when Fenix marched across a hundred worlds. Given that he was born in 2102, and that the youngest Zealot I know of is around ~90 years old, you have from 2192 to 2500 for that to work. I don't see the Protoss losing hundreds of worlds in that time alone. :::And Fenix is a templar. Protoss military. Protoss military doesn't do the exploring. That's the Khalai's job going by the Mothership Short Story, and after the Kalathi business, the Protoss aren't going to fight on a world without conquering it. They can just purify it from orbit if they have to. Planet Crackers were built for a reason before they even knew about the Zerg after-all. :::Going by the Dark Templar Saga, surviving Judicators hate going to Shakuras, and only do so when absolutely necessary. They leave for somewhere else in Protoss space. There's also concept art of Protoss city planets, in the same kind of style of Korhal's cities. :::As for being in decline, the SC2 website disagrees on that: :::"In the centuries that followed, a golden age dawned on Aiur. Its war-torn continents were healed; its native species flourished; and numerous cities and temples were erected across its surface. The protoss population swelled to billions, and Aiur became the hub of an interstellar empire. :::This period of stunning growth ended with the arrival of the Swarm." :::The Protoss weren't in any decline, and were having a period of stunning growth until the Zerg attacked. :::I don't really see that comment as hyperbole. They're talking about which Zerg world Raynor's on, and given the Zerg have conquered hundreds of worlds in the past, as well as the Protoss, and the fact the Terran Dominino has around ~50 worlds themselves, I don't see this as completely unbelievable to jump to "It's hyperbole." Now if it said it was millions, I would agree. :::Mar Sara wouldn't count, nor would Antiga Prime or Tarsonis. They are talking about currently infested worlds since Raynor is hiding where the Zerg are currently attacking. Mar Sara was already purified and being re-terraformed by the KMC. :::Also, I would assume if the comment is not hyperbole, then Hickson is actually basing his comment on widely known knowledge. He can't talk about worlds he doesn't know. That doesn't make sense. :::LotV quote, it's about 3:00 minute mark in the LotV overview. James Waugh states: "Their Empire once reached across the Koprulu Sector." Okay, maybe I inflated it. You might argue that's not the only thing the statement can mean... --Shadow Archon (talk) 12:26, June 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::Actually, the Templar Caste has been involved in exploration. Koronis is one such example, and I can entertain the notion of Tassadar doing so as well prior to discovering the zerg probes. Also, it stands to reason that Templar would be assigned to protect explorers. And if anything, the kalathi business would make them more reluctant to use the big guns. Point is, the worlds Fenix and Artanis marched over could have any number of circumstances, but it's a moot point anyway, since we have the hundreds figure separate from it. ::::The Dominion doesn't necessarily have around 50 worlds. Yeah, that's how many there are in the category, but go to the worlds section on the Dominion page. They've lost A LOT. ::::As for the decline thing, you are right, and I've added it in to the article. My impression for the decline came from the sheer age figure. I guess it's possible to have growth while also experiencing a decline in population...maybe. But I figure that at some point the protoss would have had to pull back at some point if only because the terrans didn't bump into them immediately when arriving in the K-sector. The manual's original line is "Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilisation to many of the more advanced races that they encountered." So, theoretically, at its height the Empire had hundreds of worlds, whereas by SC1, that number has diminished, growth aside.--Hawki (talk) 04:55, June 12, 2015 (UTC) ::::Koronis is a bit of a special occasion. He was sent out to find Xel'naga artifacts and retrieve them. He wasn't sent out to just explore, but reclaim artifacts. I will admit that Khalai explorers probably had Templar guarding them. Unless the Khalai could defend themselves like the Minbari Religious and Worker Castes, but I doubt it. ::::Well, that's the modern Dominion. HotS really took a lot of planets from them. The Dominion around the time of SC1 however included all the worlds from the Confederacy, the Kel-Morine Combine, the Umojan Protectorate, and any other independent worlds within the Sector. Doesn't that give them around 50 for sure? ::::I thought that statement was saying their population was growing as well as their territory honestly. Yeah, I know that goes against what Dustin Browder stated about them dying from sheer age, but still, that's the statement I got from it. ::::Especially since they went from billions in just centuries. ::::Eh, the Protoss still had the Dae'Uhl beyond just their own worlds. If the space under the Dae'Uhl was still considered Protoss space, I could see how the Terrans could land without a problem. The Protoss weren't on Umoja, Tarsonis, or Moria, so given they had several decades, they could have moved out on other worlds if the Terrans were too close. ::::Right now though, the only-former Protoss world I know of that the Terrans live on now is Braxis. ::::I don't really agree with the idea of them "having uninterrupted growth related to their empire and population" and "having a decline here and here." To me that's contradictory. ::::I guess I could say the dreaded words and say "Let's wait what LotV has to say." Maybe even a future Protoss focused short story, like with the Heart of the Swarm short stories focusing on the Zerg. --Shadow Archon (talk) 17:26, June 12, 2015 (UTC) :::::Blizzard suggested that the protoss are "dying" and so there's fewer and fewer left without further elaboration. I think this was from the Storyline 2007 panel. And yes this contradicts other info Blizzard gave before. It's difficult to untangle retcons. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 14:26, June 14, 2015 (UTC) :::::The Info from the Aiur page comes after 2007 though, whenever the website was updated from the old 2007 version. So, wouldn't it be the retcon? --Shadow Archon (talk) 17:02, June 14, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Yes, I think you'd be right. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 22:13, June 15, 2015 (UTC)